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Spoilers through all aired eps in season 3 OUaT

I watch this show for Robert Carlyle. Along the way I fell in love with Emilie de Ravin. I think Lana Parilla and Colin O'Donoghue are fabulous too.

I'm not in love with the OUaT writing, however, so bail now if you want only positivity! I like watching Colin on screen. I think he's a good actor, and he's delectable to look at. I want to like Hook, but I can't--to do so would be checking my integrity at the door.

JMO: I just want to try to put my finger on my problem with Hook, and how his character is being handled.



Hook is not a good guy. Neither is Regina, nor Rumple, but both Rum and Regina went through redemption arcs (complete with backsliding, so complex and therefore more authentic, imo) in which we saw self-loathing, self-recrimination, consequences, loss, suffering, uncertainty, even suicidal urges. So I can to a better degree forgive Regina and Rum, especially Rum when you contextualize his crimes in the light of the loss of his son, the corruption of dark magic, and the fact that these themes are up front and addressed.

When I look at Hook, however, I still see him for all he has done (I'll limit this to Belle and Bae, or I'd be here all day! But suffice to say he betrayed Ariel and Eric too for his own ends, was unnecessarily cruel and heartless when dealing with disabled Rumple, and has showed his true colors with countless other characters too)

- His abuse and betrayal of young Baelfire being presented as a healthy and happy relationship is bogus.

- A man who came across a young woman chained in a tower and beat her instead of freeing her, when it would have cost him nothing to let her go.

- Then he terrorized her by trying to kidnap her in SB (Belle was full on terrified by the time Rum rescued her in the library)
(insert gratuitous Rumbelle comfort about here!)
HugME

- Then he threatened her some more on his ship when she retrieved Rum's cloak, with clear sexual threat overtones, even though Belle stood her ground and faced him down (compare to Rum, who doesn't throw in "rapey" dimensions when he threatens people, if anything the opposite)

- Then he shot her and caused her to lose her memories

and on and on...you get the picture. His character is ugly. He's not the lovable rogue they are trying to retcon us all into believing, he's a violent, selfish, abusive prick.

I LOVE that Belle, the most forgiving character on the show, REMEMBERS these things when she deals with Hook. She REMEMBERS Regina too. Neither Hook nor Regina have sought Belle's forgiveness, and Hook is clearly more interested in being smug than repentant.

Yes, Belle will work with them if she has to, to save Rumple, but she represents my opinion of Hook. He's not a good guy. His being lovelorn for Emma in no way endears him to me as I believe Kitsowitz think it will. His feelings for Milah didn't change my opinion of him as a total asshole with how he treated her crippled husband (and once he laid eyes on bb!Bae, he should have walked away instead of taking Milah--his libido outweighed any concern for leaving a child motherless) and his rapport with Henry is so fake and forced it is painful to watch. Also, if Henry saw how Hook treated Henry's father at that age, he wouldn't give Hook the time of day.

So thank goodness Belle has integrity, or this show would be unwatchable. It's insulting to me to present a character like this as if Emma should want him. If she saw who he was when no one is watching--like when he left Belle in the tower after backhanding her so hard she was out cold, when she had never done anything to him--I mean, really, what kind of man could or would do that? No one I want to know.

woobie

Date: 2014-04-14 09:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sunnytyler001.livejournal.com
THIS! SO MUCH.

Date: 2014-04-14 09:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] liliannabelle.livejournal.com
:) Yay! Glad I have at least one flister I didn't offend with my ramblings! ♥

Date: 2014-04-14 09:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tianaluthien.livejournal.com
ALL OF THIS.

Date: 2014-04-15 02:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] liliannabelle.livejournal.com
♥ ♥ ♥ yay for like-minded folk!

Date: 2014-04-14 10:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] walkwithheroes.livejournal.com
We've already discussed this, and you know my views, but. . .

*Claps* Yes! This! All of it!

Hook/Killian is a Gary Stu. All his wrong doings and misdeeds are always washed away or re-conned to have been a good thing. He and Bae weren't close. Bae was literally on that ship a week (or less) before Hook sold him out to Pan. From what we know from dialog, Bae/Neal didn't see Hook again until New York. As for Belle: he hit her and left her in the tower, he tried to kill her in the library, he threatened her life on his boat, and he shot her.

Regina and Rumple have had realistic redemption arcs. Dark Magic is addicting and can make people cowards, as it is a crutch. Both characters have dealt with that and admitted to it. Both have had craptastic lives and have been manipulated or scared into making bad decisions. Both did a lot of what they did in order to get something/someone they wanted - to change the past or become free.

Hook is just a selfish and abusive. I mean, the man spent all of season two betraying people in order to seek revenge for a woman he barely seems to remember. (And don't get me started on the Great Milah/Hook Love Story - they knew each other for a day, ran off, and never looked back. And they had no chemistry!)

Date: 2014-04-15 11:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] liliannabelle.livejournal.com
>>He and Bae weren't close. Bae was literally on that ship a week (or less) before Hook sold him out to Pan. >>

Oh thanks for this! I have an utterly TERRIBLE memory for this show (it's so hard to pay attention if Rumbelle isn't on the screen!) so I THOUGHT it was only like a week, but I couldn't be sure.

Relatedly, I think it's irresponsible to leave Henry with a guy like this. Belle would have been a more appropriate sitter, she's practically Henry's grandmother-(pauses to absorb the weird)-Hook is nothing to Henry but a guy who harmed his mother and father.

And if Hook only knew Bae a week, then Belle is at least as qualified to talk to Henry about what she knew of Bae. I'm still sad that we didn't get some quality Bae&Belle bonding. They worked together with Lumiere but it had a very businesslike feel to it. If that were me, I couldn't have resisted a moment (or four) with Belle momentarily breaking down, faced with Rumple's death then being back in the Dark Castle...he could have given her a hug and a few words of encouragement--and in turn he would have seen just how deeply Belle loved Rumple, which would have further cemented Belle's role in reuniting Bae with his father on an emotional trust level.

*Le sigh of woe for all the awesome this show COULD be*

>>Regina and Rumple have had realistic redemption arcs. Dark Magic is addicting and can make people cowards, as it is a crutch. Both characters have dealt with that and admitted to it. Both have had craptastic lives and have been manipulated or scared into making bad decisions. Both did a lot of what they did in order to get something/someone they wanted - to change the past or become free.
>>

Very well said.



Date: 2014-04-16 03:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] walkwithheroes.livejournal.com
Yeah, I'm 90% sure Bae/Neal was hanging out on the Jolly Roger for a week. No more than that. And, as I've said there was a bit of dialogue in S2 that strongly suggested he never saw Hook again. I'm sure they'll recon it, though. Have it that Tink befriended Bae/Neal, because Hook asked her too. That he watched and protected Bae/Neal from afar or some sh*t.

Considering that, as far as Snowing and Emma can remember, Hook was in on Regina's kidnapping and trying to murder people before Neverland - which was all probably a month ago, at best. . .yes, it is weird and irresponsible of them to leave Henry with him. (Remember, the Neverland arc took place over eight-fourteen days, max. And the last handful of S2 episodes took place over two weeks, max.) Also, why are they leaving a 12/13 year old with a guy who doesn't even know what lunch meat is?

I would have loved to see Bae and Belle bonding! And Belle and Henry bonding! But then, he doesn't like books anymore. :/

That reminds me: what did Belle do the rest of that missing year? Assuming she and Bae set out for the Dark Castle (which seems to be near Regina's castle) within the three months of being back in the EF. And, assuming it took them a week or two to get there - that's four months, tops. Did she never go back to the other castle and tell everyone what Bae and she did? That Rumple was back and that Zelena had him? Or did she hide out for the rest of the year? Because, that kind of seems important. That seems like an important flashback to have. Way more so than Hook's flashback.

Date: 2014-04-17 06:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] liliannabelle.livejournal.com
>>what did Belle do the rest of that missing year? Assuming she and Bae set out for the Dark Castle (which seems to be near Regina's castle) within the three months of being back in the EF. And, assuming it took them a week or two to get there - that's four months, tops. Did she never go back to the other castle and tell everyone what Bae and she did? That Rumple was back and that Zelena had him? Or did she hide out for the rest of the year? >>

The timing issues of that missing year are bothering me just in general. I guess it had to be a year, to accommodate (the actress who plays) Snow's pregnancy (?) although it actually could have just been 6 or 7 months if they assumed Snow was already pregnant, and isn't full term at the point at which they wake up back in SB, which she wasn't or she'd have had the baby already.

A year is a long time, but the events they have shown us so far could have been accomplished in much less time, and to think of the characters tooling around being at a loose end for the rest of those months just seems...well, sloppy. And weird, because when we see them there they are fired up and ready to do battle--Belle to find Rum, Bae to get back to Emma, Regina to battle the green witch who took over her castle, and then Sleeping (if I got that ship name right, lol) are pregnant and having their own drama?

It just feels very strange to have so much of a blank hole for all those characters--like they were just in stasis most of the time. It's not unlike how characters are on screen when they aren't part of the action in OUaT: just standing around trying to fill the space with silent "acting" that just ends up looking awkward and cartoonish. Like poor Henry, "oh let me feign fascination with what number is on the dice that rolled under the plate by exaggerating how I stretch to see it with my big excited smile!" it's cringe-inducing! RC doesn't play into it, but that just means he stands still a lot, emoting quietly with those eyes of his--again, it's a stasis problem that occurs when you have writers and directors who don't have the talent to handle an ensemble cast.

Date: 2014-04-18 01:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] walkwithheroes.livejournal.com
Word to all of that!!

Date: 2014-04-15 09:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trex-in-boots.livejournal.com
Thank you for this!! My bestie loves Hook but I think it's more of just his looks than anything else but she doesn't see what you have just stated & I have tried to tell her.

Date: 2014-04-15 11:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] liliannabelle.livejournal.com
Yeah. I'll admit I have the same problem with Robert Carlyle -- it almost doesn't matter WHAT his character does, I still root for him, and that's saying something when you consider some of his roles!

Colin O'Donoghue deserves major kudos for how well he has done humanizing Hook jut with his eyes and his acting--but it's not in the script, there is no redemption, no actual acknowledgement, and until we see some of that--the true no holds barred facing up to the darkness inside him like Regina and Rum have done, I'm not on board with his character.
/ramble!

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